Book Discussion - chapters 20 and 21

[into_the_greenwood]

After two years of little in the way of a healthy relationship, Chapter 20 sees Clive coming down with flu, passing it on to Maurice, then Clive later having a relapse. Or is it? The scene takes place whilst Clive is visiting the Halls in order to gain some peace and quiet. As an aside at dinner he says that he's going to Greece, but this doesn't seem to be acknowledged by anyone. Has he slipped it in hoping that the conversation is sufficiently concentrated on another subject so as not to have to discuss it further? Or is it nerves which have caused him to blurt it out when no one is listening? Either way, it seems that Clive knows why he is going to Greece, and knows that this is not going to go down well with Maurice. Apart from flu, I would guess that it's this hanging over his head that contributes to his fainting fit. And, later in the chapter, his lack of reaction to anything is the only way he can deal with what is going on in his head, i.e. he is going to drop Maurice. Maurice, meanwhile, behaves like a woman fussing around Clive, earning a sarcastic reproof from the doctor. Chapter 21 really seems to sound the death knell of their relationship; Clive still is deeply involved with the Classics whilst, as we may have suspected, Maurice has left the fleeting interest behind, it being 'no substitute for life'. This shows quite clearly how ill-suited the two men are, not only that but Clive now takes to teasing Maurice in a malicious way about his lack of interest and lack of knowledge. And yet, loyal Maurice believes Clive to be unwell still and continues to hope that all will be well when Clive is 'better'. Maurice here seems to be hopeful that everything will eventually be okay again...but what is he basing this on? Do you think that Maurice's limited knowledge of what a proper relationship is results in him accepting Clive's treatment as if it were the norm? What do you think Clive is feeling when he comes into Maurice, gets into bed with him, then leaves almost immediately?

Comments

[queen_ypolita]

I've always been rather puzzled by Clive in this section of the novel, and I'm not sure I understand him any better than I did in the past but this time I was struck by how unhappy he seems to be. It feels like he's reached the breaking point. Whatever pleasure doing the conventional thing of studying for the bar gave him, clearly having reached his goal he's dissatisfied and doesn't find it fulfilling. The influenza and the rest involved in the convalescence probably gave him lots of opportunities to reflect on his circumstances, and when Maurice had it too, the routine of having him in his life got disrupted, and he realised it didn't give him much beyond the routine.

After all that, I'm not surprised that their relationship is falling apart.

I suppose the bed episode is Clive's one last attempt to see if he can get anything out of the relationship, and the answer seems to be no.

I think Maurice tries to cling to itthe relationship because he cannot imagine his life without it and Clive in his life.

[trueriver]

I found these events very uncomfortable to read - having moved from the heady potential of their meeting to the gradual and inevitable ending of their friendship, all too aware of how desperate this would make Maurice, the pain that he would experience and the loneliness that would only grow deeper. Forster does not spare us the humiliation Maurice will have to endure.

There was obviously no palliative for either of them when Clive came into Maurice's bed - things had become so sterile and lonely over such a long period. What could Clive have expected, since he himself had set the boundaries almost from the beginning?

Part of me did not want to understand Clive at this stage when I originally read the book (before the film), because he made a decision counter to the one I had wanted him to make. I had been in love with the *romance* of their situation, which never fulfilled its promise.

[trueriver]

PS Oh, wonderful pics! ;)

[queen_ypolita]

I had been in love with the *romance* of their situation, which never fulfilled its promise.
I think this is true for me too, although I find it difficult to remember exactly what I felt the first few times I read the book (I went straight back to the beginning after finishing it the first time).

[sweet_fallacy]

+ Is it just me or does Clive seems to fall into sickness whenever he is consumed with doubt?

+ Now that he has passed the bar, Clive wonders if anyone really wants him involved in politics. This may have lead to him wondering to the state of his life in general. And so he fled to the Halls where he usually finds solace, but instead of sensing the turmoil in Clive, Maurice was dull and uninteresting.

+ After fainting, Clive preferred the nurse though he "loved [Maurice] as never before." Perhaps this was partially due to Maurice's "screw the office" attitude. Suddenly this casual disregard for duty annoyed Clive, an about face from their university days when he thought little of Maurice skipping lectures.

+ I suppose this is where I would probably admit my defeat where it comes to Maurice and Clive's unsuitability if I wasn't so stubborn. The fact that Maurice hopes to cheer up Clive by example shows how little they truly understand one another. His running up to Penge uninvited in the first place tells us he's getting desperate.

+ Clive is a man of words. If he's speaking meanly, he's probably spoiling for a fight. By not taking offense, Maurice is only making matters worse.

+ Clive begins to voice about his misgivings on homosexuality. His crawling into Maurice's bed was obviously a test of sorts. A test for the despicable impulse in himself... but maybe for Maurice as well. (If it does, then Clive awakened something in him... and he is to blame. If it doesn't, then obviously it is Clive alone that has driven Maurice this far... and he is to blame.)

What would have happened if Maurice wasn't too afraid to reach out? I mean, Clive would have gone on believing that Maurice didn't know what the hell he was talking about if Maurice hadn't kissed him. Would Clive caved in once more?