Book discussion: Chapters 9-11

[queen_ypolita]

Chapters 9-11

In Chapter 9, Maurice realises that he's lost the sensivity to Clive's moods and behaviour he'd have interpreted without any problem before the Easter break. Despite this, they found themselves closer than ever, embracing for the first time, when they are rudely interrupted by Maurice's other friends. At the end of the chapter, later that day, we find that Clive assumed Maurice's affectionate gestures earlier were purposeful and informed by his reading of the Symposium. But Clive got it wrong - Maurice never connected to the Symposium to his friendship with Clive, and is deeply shocked, "to the bottom of his suburban soul", and calls Clive's confession of being in love as nonsense. In Chapter 10, Maurice goes through a turmoil of emotions when he processes everything that happened with Clive so far and what it means. He's upset that Clive's not talking to him unless it's necessary to maintain the illusion of nothing being wrong. But after a frantic night he wakes up with the knowledge: "He loved men and always had loved them. He longed to embrace them and mingle his being with theirs."

Chapter 11 presents us with Maurice's attempts to talk to Clive who is not being very receptive, assuming that Maurice is not being serious. He tells Maurice to "[g]et married quickly and forget", which we the readers, with access to Maurice's thoughts, know he's not the least likely to do. When Maurice pushes on and says he's always "been like the Greeks and didn't know", words still fail him when Clive asks him to explain what he means. What follows is another night of turmoil, and the chapter ends with a dream calling him to Clive.

A couple of questions for you:
Do you think Clive's approach of assuming that Maurice understands the implication of why he was asked to read the Symposium was sensible? If not, what do you think he could have done?

Do you think Clive is being hard on Maurice?

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For the full schedule of the Maurice book discussion, see this post.

Photo credits:
Two young men: YlvaS on Flickr, used under Creative Commons By-Noncommercial-No derivate licence

Punt on the Cam: f.m. suchanek on Flickr, used under Creative Commons By-Noncommercial-No derivate licence

Comments

[sweet_fallacy]

+ Do you think Clive's approach of assuming that Maurice understands the implication of why he was asked to read the Symposium was sensible? If not, what do you think he could have done?

While a letter may have been preferable, somehow it's easier to use the words of others and I think Plato was a source of comfort for him. When he says, "I had no right to move out of my books and music, which was what I did when I met you," we learn that Clive very likely doesn't have a lot of experience with homosexuality. He may have felt that putting the idea across with this ideal of a Higher Love was more acceptable.

My guess is that A) Clive himself didn't make the connection until he read Symposium or something similar, or B) he realized it beforehand, but felt that he was alone in this sinful nature until he saw evidence of it elsewhere (i.e. in books and music). (I'm leaning toward B.) If either were the case, it would be safe to assume that he hoped the same revelation would fall upon Maurice. And in giving Maurice this recommended reading, he would understand what Clive was trying to say... much like how nowadays a boy/girl may make a mixed cd for their love interest instead of a letter. (Also, a letter would have been more incriminating, though I'm not sure if Clive had thought of that at the time.)

The fact that Maurice didn't make the connection leads me to believe that he's willfully blind. And an idiot. Seriously Clive, just give him a hit upside the head and have your way with him. He'll like it, I swear.


+ Do you think Clive is being hard on Maurice?

Even if he didn't love Clive in return, Maurice was an ass for being so insensitive to his friend's feelings in the first place. Clive took a great risk confessing to him and stripped of his rose-colored glasses of infatuation, Durham realized the situation he had put himself in -- "Most men would have reported me to the Dean or the Police." -- and what he stood to lose. Hurt and scared, he sought to remove himself from the situation by reverting back to the aloof nature of a scholar. Chapman had warned Maurice of how Clive could be once he grew bored of you, but this gave me reason to believe that it's a mechanism of self defense.

In fact, I strongly believe that this hurt lead to Clive's persistent distance for the rest of the book. Despite how affectionately things had started off between them, Clive pulls away when it comes to intimacy. He puts such an emphasis on platonic love that one must wonder if he truly believes this or he's hiding behind this excuse. For if Maurice could deny him once then it could certainly happen again, and what consequences would he face then? It must have been quite a wake-up call and so the seed of doubt had been planted.

In the end, I believe that while Clive clung to the ideal of a Higher Love for self validation, he could have been moved by it's more physical aspects if not for Maurice's dunderheaded move.

Clive's approach

[queen_ypolita]

somehow it's easier to use the words of others and I think Plato was a source of comfort for him
That makes sense. And like you, I think B is likely (from what I remember from Ch12 without looking it up). Thanks for the Stephen Fry link, by the way!

Clive and intimacy

[queen_ypolita]

Despite how affectionately things had started off between them, Clive pulls away when it comes to intimacy. He puts such an emphasis on platonic love that one must wonder if he truly believes this or he's hiding behind this excuse. For if Maurice could deny him once then it could certainly happen again, and what consequences would he face then?
I've never thought of it like that but it's a very good explanation!

[into_the_greenwood]

The fact that Maurice didn't make the connection leads me to believe that he's willfully blind. And an idiot. Seriously Clive, just give him a hit upside the head and have your way with him. He'll like it, I swear.

Yes, Maurice is being a bit dim all round - during the vac he gets pulled back into his own mental stagnation which can't help matters. I agree that Maurice would like it if Clive were to just get on and do something, but I'm not entirely sure that Clive himself would.

[sweet_fallacy]

I'm not entirely sure that Clive himself would.

Agreed.

[into_the_greenwood]

He puts such an emphasis on platonic love that one must wonder if he truly believes this or he's hiding behind this excuse. For if Maurice could deny him once then it could certainly happen again, and what consequences would he face then? It must have been quite a wake-up call and so the seed of doubt had been planted.

I can understand this a little, however Maurice, after he's got over the shock, definitely shows Clive that he's interested and wants him. Has Clive had a previous experience go wrong like it did with Maurice initially to have put him off the whole idea of taking things further? It seems somewhat extreme for Clive to eschew everything about being homosexual because of Maurice's initial shock and rejection. Maurice does his utmost to change things and yet Clive is adamant. If he hasn't had a previous experience then I think it's an altogether over the top reaction, and strengthens my feeling that he either did not really want a physical relationship...or alternatively, that the idea of one and the possible implications of having one were too frightening for him to go ahead once he had been able to think about it. In which case he's using Maurice in a way to justify his own actions, and that's not very fair on Maurice who has realised he loves Clive and wants some physicality to their relationship.

[sweet_fallacy]

over the top reaction

I'm not as certain of that. I can't deny the possibility that Clive was looking for nothing more than a platonic relationship, but he took a great risk in confessing to Maurice. How many men have committed suicide because they'd rather die than live a lie or be found out? Maybe they were overacting, but like Clive, many stood to lose everything of the life they knew. The only life they knew.

His reputation would be ruined and he'd lose standing amongst his peers. He'd probably be expelled from university. His family could disown him from the shame, thus losing his home and any chance of inheritance. So if he's having doubts or is a little reluctant to have faith in Maurice now that he's been spurned once, I'd say it was understandable considering the circumstances.

he's using Maurice in a way to justify his own actions

Yeah, he is! Not in an intentionally malicious way, but I have wondered if his convincing Maurice was to further validate his own beliefs.

[into_the_greenwood]

Yes, you're right with everything you say about the consequences of being open with the wrong person, but surely Maurice has shown by his actions that he can be trusted and that he does want a relationship. Or do you think that perhaps Clive is still unsure and believes Maurice to be sincere, but misguided and misinterpreting what he really feels in order to make Clive happy? I thought that when Maurice climbs through the window and declares his love that that was quite a strong way of showing that he truly does have feelings for Clive (I think I may be jumping ahead to the chapters I've posted about this week now - sorry!). And yet from the moment of Maurice's initial rejection, Clive begins to withdraw, culminating in the painful hand-kissing scene much later in the book. Maurice hung around for so long waiting for Clive's scraps (but I am jumping very ahead now, so will hush!)

[trueriver]

The affectionate intimacy that had grown between them was new ground for both of them, but led inevitably and too quickly, to a divergence which was to become clearer only gradually. Clive had come to this point theoretically, and Maurice instinctively. First love is indeed ecstasy and agony, and having read this when I was very young, I identified with it wholeheartedly.

Clive was very much wishful thinking that Maurice would be able to understand him. He expected too much of Maurice, being so apparently offhand in asking whether he had read The Symposium, but not able/ready to explain it or himself honestly to Maurice, just assuming the text would explain everything. Clive is hard on Maurice; I'm not sure he could be any other way, as that seems to be his nature, more's the pity.

[into_the_greenwood]

Clive had come to this point theoretically, and Maurice instinctively

This really sums up part of the reason I think Clive and Maurice are so unsuited to one another. Maurice is not a great thinker, and what he admires is action. Clive, on the other hand, is all mysterious explanations through Greek writings that are far too obscure for someone like Maurice.

Even if they had got together, I think Clive would have got fed up with Maurice's lack of intellectuality, and Maurice would be pining for some physical movement in their relationship.

[into_the_greenwood]

Yes, I think Clive is being very hard on Maurice. I'm currently toying with a theory that Clive was more in love with the idea of love than he was capable of actually feeling it. Or, to be more gentle, he just wasn't, deep down, that interested in the practical, every day concerns of being with another person in that way.

If I was being very blunt and harsh, I would say that Clive had acted out his romantic notions with regards to Maurice and Maurice's rejection was part and parcel of that - thus leaving Clive to continue to treat Maurice poorly. I think (going back again to Chapman's comment about Clive becoming bored with people) that Maurice had outlived the romantic daydream and become a little too real for Clive to want to deal with. Clive is happiest when immersed in 'books and music' and I think his hardness (which I don't believe is intended) stems from that. Yes he wants Maurice to reciprocate his love, but that love isn't the kind of love that Maurice either envisages for himself once he's worked things out in Ch 10, nor is it the kind of love he needs as a person.

I think I've said before that Alec later in the book provides Maurice with the physical aspects of living, and by that I don't just mean sex, but the whole gamut of what I see as 'movement' in a way, whereas Clive always seems to me to be somewhat stagnant in comparison.

As for the Symposium, I think this is a very good example of what I've been saying about Clive - to him the Symposium meant something in terms of 'love', but to expect Maurice to see it (especially as Maurice was studying Classics anyway!) was expecting quite a lot.

[queen_ypolita]

Clive was more in love with the idea of love than he was capable of actually feeling it. Or, to be more gentle, he just wasn't, deep down, that interested in the practical, every day concerns of being with another person in that way.
Yes, this makes an awful lot of sense. It's quite difficult to discuss these couple of chapters without reference to Ch12 which gives a few details of how Clive became who he is. There's a strong sense of him building up this ideal scenario along his interpretation of Phaedrus and of course nothing he ever experiences with anyone can live up to it. Partly because it's his dream and his rationalisation of what he had until then seen as the Great Taint (or whatever words he'd used), one that he had arrived at on his own rather than with somebody.

In a way, I think Clive's dream of the right kind of companionship would only ever have been possible at Cambridge (or alternative academic surroundings where classics can become a central part of your life) and once he's out of there, it dies completely.

[into_the_greenwood]

I think Clive's dream of the right kind of companionship would only ever have been possible at Cambridge (or alternative academic surroundings where classics can become a central part of your life)

Yes! The Classics and what some of them mean to Clive play a BIG part in his viewpoint (re: homosexuality etc.)