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never_be_parted2009-05-31 05:21 pm
into_the_greenwood) wrote in never_be_parted2009-05-31 05:21 pm
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Book Discussion Chapters 5 - 8
Chapter Five begins with Maurice moving from school onto university. Here, he is as slow to become involved in Cambridge life, as he has been thus far with everything else. For the whole of his first year, he behaves as if university is an extension of school and it isn't until his second year, when he moves into college, that he begins to realise that the behaviour he both experienced and exacted at school is not what is expected of him as a man.
In his second year, he moves into college. He is introduced to Risley, who unsettles him, although he doesn't appreciate why at this point. The character of Risley was based on a friend of Forster's, Lytton Strachey, whose initial opinion of the novel was somewhat less than wholehearted approval. Of course, over the years, Forster made numerous changes to the original manuscript, so it can possibly be said that it is unproductive to tie in Strachey's comments with the book as it was published, over fifty years after Strachey had first seen it.
Back to Risley. He obviously stirs something in Maurice, although Maurice isn't sure exactly what. Whatever it is, it prompts him to call, something which is somewhat of an unusual thing for a second year student to do, Risley being both a third year and in a different college. Maurice may well be portrayed quite vociferously by Forster as banal and inherently lazy, however when sufficiently roused he obviously is capable of action. It is in Risley's room that he meets Clive Durham, and here again we are shown that something in Clive prompts unusual behaviour from Maurice – he hangs around longer than he intends, he stays out for an hour late at night in the hope of seeing Durham. Yet, the reasons for his interest in both Risley and Clive remain elusive.
By Chapter Seven Maurice and Clive are good friends. However when their relationship becomes playful in the physical sense, Maurice is too rough for Clive as he is a small, slight man. Clive comes across as being more cerebral than physical. When he takes Maurice to task about all the nonsense he's been spouting about religion, he ties Maurice in knots and gives him a headache. At least, though, he is forcing Maurice out of his torpidity and making him THINK at last. (We should all remain eternally grateful to Clive for doing that imo.) Later in this chapter, the Dean commands his students to omit references to homosexuality during his translation class. This enables Clive to bring up the subject with Maurice, and to suggest to him that he reads Plato's Symposium.
The last chapter of this week's discussion concerns Maurice at home. We presume he reads the Symposium although it's not stated explicitly here (Clive mentions it in the following chapter). Maurice seems to have taken on Clive's opinions about religion, without really considering them fully for himself, and is outspoken about his new beliefs to his family. The episode with Miss Olcott shows that, despite pinning Clive's letters into his pyjamas and taking them to bed with him, he is still completely at sea regarding who and what he is. Miss Olcott, however, knows that something is not right with the situation and, very sensibly, extricates herself from it. This could just be because Maurice has no clue and behaves like a stalker; it could, however, mean she has some innate concept of Maurice not being husband material.
Overall, these four chapters show us Maurice floundering at university in one way or another, but very slowly moving a little way forwards. He gets to grip with the growing up process and stops behaving like a schoolboy. However, he's shaky with the notion of having his own opinions and latches on to Clive's, still not aware of why he is so enamoured with the other man, and even a woman who probably has little concept of homosexuality seems to be a little more clued in than Maurice.
Some questions these chapters throw up:
*Maurice's college is not named, do you think this reinforces both its and Maurice's unimportance?
*It seems rather strange at the age of nineteen/twenty, as he must be by this point, to be worrying about fellow students breaking one's plates or insulting one's mother. However, it's stated that some of Maurice's contemporaries never grow out of Public School behaviour. Despite Maurice's slow growth, do you think that at this point he is showing any sign of the man he is by the end of the book?
*In chapter seven, do you think there is significance in Clive being unable to match Maurice physically, and Maurice being unable to match Clive mentally. Do you think this is showing that the two are fundamentally unsuited to one another?
*What on earth was he thinking with Miss Olcott? Did he deep within himself feel some kind of stirring and, because Miss Olcott was available, he transfers his unconscious feelings onto her? Was the Symposium to blame in that he felt something through reading it and translated those feelings into what was usual?
*Maurice says his mother wouldn't 'fag herself' to Clive, however when she is upset about Maurice's revelations, he claims he knew she would be…why the difference?
*It was obviously de riguer to be seen arm in arm with a fellow student, and even Maurice's stroking of Clive's hair goes unnoticed. How much do you think this helps or hinders Maurice on his voyage of self discovery?
Next week
queen_ypolita brings you the next chapters in our discussion, details of which can be found HERE.
no subject
It's a good question and I think you're on to something there. Of course the alternative argument would have it that opposites attract and complement each other, that Clive wants Maurice just because he's not a deep thinker, and Maurice wants Clive because he admires the "tranquil and orderly brain". But maybe that's not enough in the long term.
I really like Risley here, he's a breath of well-deserved fresh air for Maurice.
Great intro and lovely pictures, by the way!
no subject
I'm thinking about Alec when considering Maurice and Clive's unsuitability for one another. I do agree that they do complement each other, however Maurice ultimately does end up with a partner who is physical, and who no doubt matches him in strength.
I think Clive is good as a first love, the one who gets Maurice's brain into some kind of forward gear instead of sitting in neutral for ever more...but I just can't help but think that even this early on, we're being shown their overall incompatibility.
no subject
I agree. Someone more like Maurice couldn't do that, but he's quite out of his depth with Clive (the theology discussion is a good example of it).
no subject
Actually, I find that Maurice and Clive are rather similar. While Maurice feels he must strive for normalcy, much of Clive's self-assurance is a bluff, then and later. Perhaps if Maurice had come to terms with his sexuality earlier and Clive had later, then their roles would have reversed as well.
Not into the brainy sort?
You know, I've never thought about this, beyond automatically assuming that Clive could only be truly happy with someone who matches him intellectually but your comment made me stop and think. I'm starting to wonder to what extent the "tranquil and orderly brain" is Maurice's perception rather than the omniscient narrator's.
But on the whole, I think Clive would want someone who thinks deeply, and that's not Risley who's witty and amusing but not deep. And it's not really Maurice either.
Re: Clive's self-assurance
Perhaps it's just my romantic bias that wants to believe that they could have worked things out.
As I said in my comment below, Clive had drawn parallels between their lives, possibly (I think) because he saw the same falsities/doubts in Maurice that he recognized in himself. Or maybe he saw those similarities because he wanted to see them.
Re: Clive's self-assurance
Re: Clive's self-assurance
Re: Not into the brainy sort?
Yes, that's a very good question. Maybe he's the one person who sees the hidden qualities in Maurice that no one else at this point does, not even Maurice. And Maurice has certain intensity even if he's not quite up to Clive in intellectual depth. There must be something that inspires Clive to be bold enough to make the move and I don't think perceived (or projected) similarity of background doesn't quite seem enough.
Re: Clive's self-assurance
Obviously there was an initial attraction,but you can feel that about all sorts of people. Then you get to know them and either it wears off or intensifies. Given that there are a small number of gay men around, I also wonder if it isn't partly also a case of grabbing hold of someone who Clive did like and get on with, but who he projected his ideas of love onto which perhaps weren't as intense as he would have liked them to be.
Clive's self-assurance
This was another thing that made me stop and think and I'm not sure I can see it that way--do you want to tell us more about in what ways you see him bluffing?
Re: Clive's self-assurance
Now, I must admit that while I didn't really see it this way until later in the book when Clive did his 180 and all of a sudden he's pro-marriage and "gay is wrong" and "it was just a phase." How can you swing from one extreme to another unless you're compensating for something?
Re: Clive's self-assurance
Indeed. Clive at this stage seems composed and self-aware, (moving onto Ch12 territory here) having recognised who he is, fought with it and come to terms with and now willing to open up about it a little, and not just to anybody. And I think at this stage is genuine but why doesn't it last? Well, I'm sure we'll be back at this question several times later on.
Affectionate Maurice
My first thoughts are how lovely it must have felt to Maurice to walk arm in arm with Clive and to stroke his hair - these things he does naturally enough, and they are so important in fulfilling his affectionate, romantic side, even though he plays roughly, not having developed sensitivity at that early stage. I don't think this will have hindered his journey of self-discovery, but the shock of Clive's later statement caught him so unawares, right out of his *comfort zone*. I think the early affection may have served to confuse him rather than hinder him, and it took a long time for him to understand how little Clive was actually prepared or able to give him.
Re: Affectionate Maurice
Yes, he does take overlong to realise that Clive just isn't going to give him what he needs - namely a fulfilling sexual relationship. And the confusion about this stemming from Clive's affection which, Maurice may well believe is all that is available to men like themselves. Early in these chapters Maurice comes to the conclusion that there is little available for those who entertain obscene thoughts, and Clive's behaviour to him over the years does nothing but confirm that.
What is interesting is that Forster, at this time, was a virgin himself, and it's only after he experienced sex for himself that he talks of how he would have written Maurice differently. I'd be intrigued to know what he would have changed.
Re: Affectionate Maurice
Ditto.
no subject
Now, if there had been an affair with Risley, what do you think would have happened? While Risley spouted much of the same philosophical posturing as Clive, would he have taken the same careful deliberation with Maurice? I don't think he would have. In fact, if anything were to happen between them, I'm fairly sure it would have been short-lived for lack of true affection. And since Risley's educational course in the Love of Men would probably have been less... gentle, would Maurice have fallen down the slippery slide of guilt and self-loathing? Would he have followed Risley's example by continuing a stream of clandestine affairs, searching for that elusive friend? Would he have become another Clive Durham, spending the rest of his life in self-loathing falsehood? Would he have lost control and lashed out? Maybe even take his frustrations out on others? What type of person do you think Maurice Hall would have become?
And if Clive Durham were not to have become so close with Maurice, how different would he have been? Would he have remained stuck between the pages of his books or was his "coming out" simply an eventuality? Anyone care to elaborate on their thoughts of his friendship with Risley?
+ Do you think this is showing that the two are fundamentally unsuited to one another?
Actually, I think that they were rather suited for one another, at least at that given time. I got the impression that Clive liked being manhandled, though perhaps it just wasn't in the form he would have preferred. And personally, I interpreted their "debate" on religion as Maurice's attempted bluff to impress. He knew he couldn't match Clive's intelligence and being the highly religious sort is typically held as a strength that's not often questioned, though we all know how this backfired. As for Clive, I believe he sought understanding above intellect and he took to lecturing Maurice with an authority that may have given him comfort (having been raised with the expectation of becoming a politician). His interest may not necessarily be about having found someone to mold, but instead a kindred spirit struggling against the same pressures of society. He had just told Maurice about his troubles from home, but why ask for his opinion? Of what Maurice would do in his place? Yes, Clive has been drawing parallels between their lives, but I think that's because he sees the falsities that Maurice had initially feared would be discovered and recognizes it as something in himself. After all, we know that Clive must have had some inner turmoil due to his newfound faith and belief in marriage later in the story. "Converting" his friend and potential lover was a form of self-justification which would also explain why he would later blame himself for the changes in Maurice.
+ What's up with Maurice's headaches? Does this only happen under duress? Is this a physical manifestation of his attempts of self-suppression?
+ In the first chapter we're told that Maurice was afraid of the dark, but in chapter eight he is no longer botheres by such things. Is this Forster's way of showing us that Maurice was growing up and stripping himself of inhibitions?
+ As for Miss Olcott, my only supposition was that she became a receptacle of all Maurice's feelings. Confused, afraid and undoubtedly lonely, he sought out what would be considered only natural for a young man. And in doing so remove himself from the influence that was Clive Durham because if everything he had believed before wasn't true, then who hell was Maurice Hall? Even trading the Howells for a motor car and contacting his father's old business partner was a means of taking control so as to reaffirm his former path.