Book Discussion Chapters 12 - 15

[into_the_greenwood]

The first three of the chapters up for discussion this week deal with Clive and Maurice's relationship at Cambridge, whilst the fourth chapter deals with the aftermath Maurice faces at home – from both his own family and his interfering yet unhelpful neighbour, Dr Barry.

Chapter 12 gives us some insight to the mind of Clive – what has he been thinking all this time, what are his motivations and desires. It is within this chapter that we learn that he has sincerely believed from the start that his relationships with other men must 'never become carnal'. This belief is perhaps what comes between the two men, as Clive refuses to countenance anything other than the platonic, taking his inspiration from Plato, whereas Maurice is desperate for something more. Since Maurice has not had years of mulling to do about being homosexual, he has avoided coming to the kind of unhelpful and unhealthy conclusions that cause Clive so much angst. At the end of this chapter we find ourselves where Ch 11 ended – Maurice coming through the window to declare his love for Clive, a physical action repeated later in the book by Alec.

Chapter 13 is the recounting of Maurice and Clive's one glorious day together – never experienced previously, and never to be repeated. In it, Maurice once again shows his physicality by riding the motorbike hard. He crashes and they leave the bike to be collected and repaired somehow by, one presumes, the invisible working class, before being returned to its owner. Neither seems bothered and both are sure that it will be fixed up with no problem.

In Chapter 14, Maurice is unfairly sent down, and it is intimated that this is because the college dons saw a romance developing between him and Clive. Since Maurice has no particular merits, whereas Clive is their 'best Classical scholar', he must suffer a punishment whilst Clive does not.

Chapter 15 sees the return of Dr Barry. After receiving censure from his mother and sisters, Maurice is faced with the wrath of his neighbour, a man who has so far proved singularly unhelpful to Maurice so far. In his interactions with his family, he seems to return to his old snobbish attitudes, where his brain returns to sleep and he acts like he is expected to act, and how he did when he was much younger.


Some questions about the chapter:

*Does the insight into Clive's way of thinking reinforce the idea of his and Maurice's fundamental unsuitability for each other? Do you think Clive could have ever come round to a different way of thinking? What would have been the results if Clive had not come to this conclusion – would they be any different to what does happen or would Penge and his duty towards the family and the estate always dictate how far he could go with his homosexuality. In other words, no matter what conclusions Clive came to, was there relationship doomed because of circumstance, never mind anything else?

*Do you think the crash in Ch 13 a metaphor for Clive and Maurice's relationship?

*What do you think the significance is of Clive stepping of the dyke and going under, whilst Maurice strips and happily swims?

*Of their day together, what do you think Forster means by giving them such a lovely day, then splitting them apart directly afterwards?

Comments

Fundamental unsuitability

[queen_ypolita]

I like Ch12 because it explains rather a lot about Clive. But for me, it definitely confirms that Maurice is not right for him even if he falls head over heels in love (which he seems to do, more or less, although I wouldn't have thought him capable of that). As I've just said in a comment to last week's post, I think one of the main problems with Clive's dream of companionship is that it's one that he's arrived alone, which means it's highly likely that no matter who he is with, he'll never be able to quite reach it.

Furthermore, it's a dream of a relationship that can only ever become true in a setting such as Cambridge, and even there there are deans and the like who can and will interfere. And even at Cambridge, people who might be available, so to speak, will not all share the same dreams (Clive recognises that Risley's circle of friends is not right for him, although their existence seems to give him some comfort).

And even the narrator implies that Clive was wrong in trying to approach Maurice intellectually, rather by "trusting the body" (or words to that effect). I had forgotten, though, that at that point Clive is said to have recognised that Maurice is in love with him, which is why he made his move. The trouble was, Maurice hadn't.

Tradition and duty

[queen_ypolita]

would Penge and his duty towards the family and the estate always dictate how far he could go with his homosexuality
I think once Clive leaves university, his sense of duty to the traditions of the family, the "good and able" lawyers and squires, strenghtens. It might have been possible to entertain Platonic dreams (of his interpretation) at Cambridge, but not at the world at large. And I think it's possible that he might actually come to rethink his forceful rejection of Christianity--it comes across as teenage absolutism that may (or may not) soften with age, which could mean he makes a conscious choice to put (to him) sinful stuff behind him and embrace fulfilling his filial and familial duties to the full.

Such a perfect day

[queen_ypolita]

Of their day together, what do you think Forster means by giving them such a lovely day, then splitting them apart directly afterwards?
That it was doomed! If they'd been able to spend more time together right after it, it might have been that either the issue of physical intimacy had come up sooner in a less Clive-controlled manner, or their intellectual incompatibility would have become more evident sooner.

But it seems that what happens is that the memory of that lovely day cements their relationship for a time.

Re: Fundamental unsuitability

[into_the_greenwood]

I wonder if Maurice does fall head over heels as much as we are led to believe. What if the situation was more that he finally understands himself and Clive is there in front of him as someone to love, and Maurice does feel something for his friend, but because he has no experience of any of these kinds of feelings, he thinks he's madly in love. Certainly, he feels something, but perhaps if he had known about himself earlier and had chance to meet a few boys/men over the years he would be in a better position to know what his true feelings were.

Plus, as you say about Clive, perhaps Cambridge itself brought something to Maurice's feelings and his idea of relationships. What went on there wouldn't be quite like the everyday world.

That is really interesting what you say about Clive arriving alone. This could mean him not having a fully realistic idea of what a relationship would entail. A proper one, I mean, not one where he's able to entertain ideas of platonic love because of the innocence of the other party. Possibly one of the reasons he eschews Risley and his crowd is that it was obvious they (esp Risley) would definitely want something physical out of it.

Re: Tradition and duty

[into_the_greenwood]

I think you're right. His ideas and ideals at Cambridge seem to be of the nature of unobtainable dreams (to his mind), and it's a pity Maurice became caught up in them because, I do think that for Clive, there was always going to be something of the myth about them. That he tries to make them reality is commendable in a way, but I think, like you said in another comment, the fact that he got there alone seems to mean that he will leave them alone too.

[sweet_fallacy]

I always felt that Clive needed to give himself permission to be himself. He was deeply religious as a child, believing he was being punished and doomed to a life without love. He tried his damnedest to not make one misstep, but that only lead to a breakdown. Plato told him that he wasn't alone and that there was a way to live with this "taint" as long as it was controlled. Since Christianity couldn't abide by his sort even existing, Clive chose something that gave him a little more leeway. But even so, he still held to God and his guilt, which would later reemerge.

I like to believe that things may have different if not for the way Maurice had unintentionally toyed with Clive's emotions. At one point it says, "his emotion, more compact than Maurice's, was not split into the brutal and the ideal, nor did he waste years in bridging the gulf." This says to me that if he couldn't give himself emotionally to Maurice, then of course it would never become physical. When Maurice rejected him, Clive had begun to revert to his old way of thinking. Maurice had bowed down to Clive's will in so many matters (religion, flannel trousers, skipping lectures...) that he felt responsible for his influence over Maurice. When Maurice finally confessed, it was only too obvious to Clive that this was his own doing and thus his guilt was given a new wind. "He never dare be friends with a young man again, for fear of corrupting him."

I see some believe that their relationship was doomed from the start, but I can't be as certain. Okay, so Maurice didn't appear to be the best candidate when Clive described him as, "bourgeois, unfinished and stupid--the worst of confidants." (I want to say that part of his opinion came from his snobbish background.) But he did see many qualities in Maurice that he was drawn to. His willingness to listen, how he put Clive before others, teased Clive where others held off, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Clive later praises Maurice for having some sort of insight, reading the words beyond words in people. Oh, there was also that bit about how he "liked being thrown around by a powerful and handsome boy." (Yum!) Clive wanted to be recognized not just for his cleverness, but on another level and somehow he felt that Maurice answered that.

Okay, so, the questions:

*Does the insight into Clive's way of thinking reinforce the idea of his and Maurice's fundamental unsuitability for each other? It proves a great obstacle, but not necessarily a fundamental unsuitability.

*Do you think Clive could have ever come round to a different way of thinking? What would have been the results if Clive had not come to this conclusion – would they be any different to what does happen or would Penge and his duty towards the family and the estate always dictate how far he could go with his homosexuality. In other words, no matter what conclusions Clive came to, was there relationship doomed because of circumstance, never mind anything else?
Clive had already proven that his family and duties would not dictate his doings, but that it was a fragile situation. He could have flourished in the right circumstances, but unfortunately this did not happen.

*Do you think the crash in Ch 13 a metaphor for Clive and Maurice's relationship?
Not necessarily. It may have reflected their recklessness, but not the crash that was to come in their relationship, for it lead to their perfect day whereas their falling apart lead to misery.

*What do you think the significance is of Clive stepping of the dyke and going under, whilst Maurice strips and happily swims?
I hadn't put much thought into it.

*Of their day together, what do you think Forster means by giving them such a lovely day, then splitting them apart directly afterwards?
It was the epitome of platonic love, the highlight of their time together, and it clearly pointed out that Maurice wanted more despite wanting to be satisfied with what he had.